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Tópico: Abertura de wehr: 1 ou 2 pios?

  1. #1
    I love the smell of pixels in the morning Avatar de BobCuspe
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    Abertura de wehr: 1 ou 2 pios?

    Tem um post no fórum do GR discutindo a utilidade da saída com 1 ou 2 pios. Aí um cara chamado Grand Royale meteu a mão na massa e fez este tutorial:

    O fórum é esse: http://www.gamereplays.org/community...ic=669072&st=0

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    Okay, okay, Superjew, again you need to assess the opportunity costs associated with one and two Pioneer starts. Over the past few days, I compiled a chart based on the statistics of each unit involved in one and two Pioneer starts, as well as American one and two Engineer Barracks/WSC starts for comparison. I looked at the costs of building the T1 structure (or T2 in the case of a WSC start) and the building of the first three units, since you insist on a build order of Wehrmacht Quarters,Volksgrenadiers, Volksgrenadiers, Motorcycle. The following is what I found, refer to Figure 1 throughout this analysis (this is assuming your micro is top notch: there is no delay between building completion and unit production, etc.):


    Figure 1.

    One Pioneer Start vs. Two Pioneer Start
    So, does a one Pioneer start get your T1 units out faster than the standard two Pioneer Volksgrenadier, MG42 HMG, Volksgrenadier start? Is the one Pioneer start worth saving the 120 MP that a two Pioneer start would put toward another Pioneer? Let's see:

    Time
    It takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds to complete your preferred one Pioneer build (fig. 1, chart 3). A one Pioneer start takes 29 seconds longer to complete than completing a two Pioneer build with both working on the Wehrmacht Quarters (fig. 1, chart 2); 6 seconds longer than one Pioneer building and one capping. (fig. 1, chart 1).

    Cost
    The one Pioneer, 2 Volksgrenadier and Motorcycle start costs 80 MP, 2 POP, and 3.3 Upkeep more than the standard 2 Pioneer start.

    Capping Power
    For the first 60 seconds your capping power will be at 0 because your only infantry unit will be building the Wehrmacht Quarters. Once the Wehrmacht Quarters is up, your capping power will be at 1 for the next 30 seconds when your 1 Pioneer is free to cap while the first T1 unit is built (this may be delayed another 30 seconds if you produce a Motorcycle first).

    Compared to a 2 Pioneer start your capping power will be at 0 for the first 14 seconds, then you will be at 1 when the second Pioneer hits the field, if the second Pioneer helps build, your capping power will be 0 for 37 seconds.

    Furthermore, by the time your third T1 unit hits the field you will only have 3 capping units, while the 2 Pioneer build has 4 (MGs can cap in an emergency, a Motorcycle cannot cap).

    Capping power is important because the Americans will always out cap the Wehrmacht, the sooner you start capping the better.

    Conclusion
    The one Pioneer start is a weaker start compared to a 2 Pioneer start: t takes longer; costs more in MP, POP, and Upkeep; and causes a capping power deficiency when the Wehrmacht already start at a capping disadvantage to the Americans. Are these disadvantages affecting the game in the long run worth the 120 MP you save by not producing a second Pioneer?

    One Pioneer Start vs. Americans
    How does a one Pioneer start compare to the Wehrmacht's archrival, the Americans? The one Pioneer start is the weakest of the Wehrmacht's openings, but does that mean it cannot compete with American one and two Engineer starts? If the one Pioneer start cannot compete with either of the two Pioneer starts, then can it be presumed the one Pioneer start cannot compete with the best American start on the figure above—4ES (fig. 1, chart 6)? Can it compete with the best standard American two Engineer Barracks start (fig. 1, chart 5) or even a less common one Engineer start (fig 1, chart 7)? Let's find out:

    One Pioneer Start vs. American Multi-Engineer Starts

    Time

    4ES takes 1 minute and 53 seconds to complete the third T1 unit while the one Pioneer opening takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds, so you are talking about a difference of 37 seconds. Four Engineers will be on the field 7 seconds before you can get your second Volksgrenadier squad on the field.

    The best standard two Engineer Barracks start (fig. 1, chart 5) takes 2 minutes and 18.5 seconds, which is 11.5 seconds faster than the one Pioneer start. Two Engineer and two Riflemen units would be on the field before the Motorcycle hits the field leaving the two squads of Volksgrenadiers to handle them.

    Cost
    The one Pioneer start costs 340 MP, 15 FU, and 3 POP more than the 4ES opening, but the Upkeep costs 12 points less.

    The one Pioneer start costs 120 MP more than the figure 1, chart 5 start, however, it costs 3 POP, and 22.1 Upkeep less.

    Capping Power
    The one Pioneer start will be equal to the average capping power of the 4ES start at 1 point, however, the American player has the advantage because he has 4 capping units to your 3, so there is still the danger of being out capped.

    The one Pioneer start, once completed, will be at a 0.3 average capping deficit compared to the American figure 1, chart 5 start. Keep in mind, however, that the American figure 1, chart 5 start will be completed 11.5 seconds before the one Pioneer opening, that means he will have two units capping at 1 and two units capping at 1.5 for 11.5 seconds, while you only have 3 units capping at 1 even after you build is finished.

    On Pioneer Start vs. One Engineer Start

    Time

    The one Pioneer start is 28 seconds faster than the one Engineer Barracks start (fig. 1, chart 7)!

    Cost
    The one Pioneer start is 10 MP, 3 POP, and 27.1 Upkeep less than the one Engineer Barracks opening! Two for two, alright!

    Capping Power
    Even though you will be finished with your start before the American is less than a quarter of the way through producing his third T1 unit, you will still be at a capping deficit of 0.5 points on average. When you have completed the opening you will have 3 units on the field capping at 1 point apiece, the American, however, will only have one unit capping at 1 point while he as two units capping at 1.5 apiece and in less than half a minute, he will have three units capping at 1.5 points.

    Conclusion
    By the time you are finished with you opening you will have nearly a 30 second advantage over your opponent: You will have one Pioneer, two Volksgrenadiers and one Motorcycle to his one Engineer, and two Riflemen units. While the one Pioneer start has a time, a resource and a temporary unit advantage over the American one Engineer start; you are still at a capping disadvantage (to be expected versus Americans). When both starts are completed the capping disadvantage is further magnified because your American opponent will have one extra capping unit since your Motorcycle cannot cap. The American can negate the advantages you have over him by out capping you. The one thing that really makes the one Pioneer start inferior to the one Engineer start is the one Engineer start is rare if non-existent among players above the level of noob.

    Conclusion
    The one Pioneer start cannot compete against the American starts. In light of the data above it is safe to presume that since the one Pioneer start cannot compete with the two Pioneer starts, then the one Pioneer start cannot compete with best American start. The one Pioneer start cannot compete with the best American two Engineer start. The only case where a one Pioneer start may be viable against the Americans is if the American player also goes with a one Engineer start, a case which is rare unless your opponent is new to the game.

    If you are looking to minimize the inherent disadvantages and maximize the advantages Wehrmacht has against Americans then a two Pioneer start is the best option. Whether one Pioneer caps and one builds or both build then cap is up to the map, a particular strategy or tactic in mind, or personal preference. One thing is for sure in light of the above data; a two Pioneer start is the way to go if one is to remain competitive against the Americans.

    ~Fin~

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    BobCuspe | SaoNunca [ eutenhoumblog ]
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  2. #2
    Avatar de itaperuna_coh
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    Que nerd
    Start do momento agora é 3 pio...primeiro cap, segundo build t1, terceiro cap. MG pra defender algum ponto importante...volks volks volks t2

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  3. #3
    Avatar de gilber27
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    ainda bem q nao é restart do momento.

    -8 Not allowed! Not allowed!



    those who died are justified by wearing the badges , they are the chosen whites

  4. #4
    Avatar de itaperuna_coh
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    acho que com essa msg o gilber passou o yoda em msg inúteis

    2 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  5. #5
    Avatar de Sgtyoda
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    eu to atrasado porque eu ainda uso bike + mg

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  6. #6
    Haha! We have the Zeal! Avatar de SuperSoca
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    Eu a muito tempo atraz usava 1 pio, mas logo vi (intuitivamente, nunca calculei nada que nem o "professor gringo" aí) que 2 pios era mais vantagem.

    O investimento é pouco e tu tem muito mais flexibilidade.
    Sem falar que tu pode colocar wire/sandbag mais rápido, o que as vezes, é essencial.

    Pega Langres ou Ango por exemplo. O 2º Pio já pode ir botando wire perto da base pra evitar o flanking do SP logo de início.

    2 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  7. #7
    Avatar de Sgtyoda
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    pra ser ofensivo , com 1 pio vc já tem 2 unidades em campo(volks mg , volks volks) enquanto o cara só tem uma

    -2 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  8. #8
    Guardião do forum aka The keeper Avatar de Showtaro
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    A abertura de wehr do momento na verdade são 8 pios, kampfkraft center e vet 2 support!

    6 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Steam: [ZT] Showtaro


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